Focus on the Process and not the Outcome - an interview with Patti Swope

I want you to meet Patti Swope. She’s an EFT certified therapist and supervisor, and I started to become familiar with her from the listserve. I noticed that she didn’t weigh in often, but when she did I always got a lot from her responses. She seemed to repeat a central theme in her responses, which is to focus on the process and not the outcome. When I would read that, I would think, “Yes!” and then, “wait, how??”

So I reached out to her and she was kind enough to give me her time to ask her questions about her mindset and thought process in this work. And I’m going to share that with you below.

Some background first. Patti worked as a nurse for about 14 years before becoming a therapist. She said she was always interested in the relationship aspect of that work, and thus turned to therapy. She started her therapy career working with children placed in foster care due to abuse and neglect, and became a clinical director of that agency. Then when she moved to Boulder, she started her private practice and wanted to get back to marital and family work – her first love. Patti became aware of EFT in 2008, but it wasn’t until she saw Sue Johnson speak in 2009 that she truly felt hooked.

Patti was really trained at the source. She did her Externship with Sue Johnson, and Core Skills with Gail Palmer and Allison Lee, all in Ottawa. And was supervised by Marlene Best, amongst others. She’s been an EFT supervisor since 2011. Patti is one of those EFT masters that makes me realize how much further I have to go in learning this model – in a good way.


Talk to me a little about your mindset with the focus on the process instead of the outcome. When a couple is coming in and clearly their goal is to make their marriage better, how do you downshift and focus on the process instead of the outcome?

It’s easy to get caught in that, right? We tend to do that, if we’re insecure and not feeling good enough, or we’re afraid we’re going to lose clients, that often drives the focus on the outcome. And then therapists end up pushing their agenda instead of recognizing that if you focus on the process, whatever outcome happens will need to happen. So I guess for me, I just want to tune in. Because attunement trumps everything in the EFT world.

Even starting with when a couple comes in the room - you know how they come in in different ways? Some are just anxious to spill, some are more guarded, and often I want to name what’s happening in the room right now. Like if I’m feeling anxiety, I’ll say, “Hey guys, I don’t know if I’m picking up your anxiety or just my own, but I’m feeling a little anxiety – is that something you’re feeling?” and already I’m moving it into the here and now process.

Because we’re dealing with people’s insecurity, which is an anxious state, already you’re starting to see what behaviors they do in that state. Is there approach or avoidance or protection? So that can be happening right away, right now in front of you.


Something I struggle with is when I feel client’s urgency and confusion. They’re caught in the washing machine, they so desperately want this to get better and stop having these awful fights, and they come in with much more urgency that most individual clients. That energy can make me go into, “we’ve got to fix this, we’ve got to drive towards this outcome.” For you, is this an energy you have to fight against, or is it not there in the same way for you?

That’s the insecurity that comes up. The behavior is wrapped around the urgency. But when you can focus in on the naming it  - “You’re feeling so urgent, “ or “you’re so desperate to stop this fighting and feel better about this relationship,” or “there’s so much urgency to change your husband/wife feels about you.” So (talking to the client) when you feel that, of course you get urgent, and then you do what? It’s happening right now. You’re talking faster, you really want me to hear you and get you.

So it’s already happening in the room, and you want to help people organize around that. Because that’s probably a similar thing of what happens in the cycle at home.


So it sounds like you are really able to use that reflection to focus in on the present moment, without getting hooked into the problem-solving or outcome-driven goal.

I wouldn’t say I never get hooked into it! It depends on if I’m fed, and have slept well, and haven’t just had a fight with my husband, but on my best day, that’s true, that’s how I’m focusing.


That makes sense as you say that. And for me, I feel my thought process can be, “of course you’re this urgent, this is a disaster, and we need to fix this soon or the marriage will end.”

Right, and that can kind of come from your own insecurity, right? Because anxiety is so contagious.

That’s why the present process is so important. Because you want to help them get organized around what they’re doing, what they’re feeling, what they’re saying, and what their thoughts are right now so they can feel themselves experiencing it.


So much of EFT is about slowing ourselves down as the therapist. When you were starting out, how did you start to slow yourself down?

Oh my gosh, it took a long time. I was anxious. It took a secure attachment with Marlene Best, helping me realize when my insecurity was coming up, and what I do behaviorly. I start talking fast, maybe throw in some cognitive educational kind of stuff, and really I’m moving away from my own vulnerability and I’m doing the same thing the client is doing.

It helped having supervision, a secure place, and have the experience of something different. Which is what we’re trying to help our couples do. So once I could slow down with myself, and experience that being ok, then I knew it was ok going forward.

I had to learn that, when I’m feeling insecure, it’s ok to not jump in with some psycho-education, talking more, or trying to say their experience before they’ve even arrived at it. When things get too fast now, or I get overwhelmed, I just say it. I’ll say, “hey guys, I’m getting a little overwhelmed, can we just slow down, because you’re saying some important stuff and I really want to hear you.”

It’s a parallel process, and we’re modeling for them. If I can take an emotional risk and say, “hey guys, I need to slow down,” I’m owning my own vulnerability, I’m speaking about myself, I’m not pointing fingers at them and saying, “you guys have to stop, you’ve got to stop doing this,” which is what we want them to do with each other.

It’s not easy to do that when you’re triggered.


For me, I can feel like there’s a ticker tape running through my head of what energy I need to bring when a couple gets escalated in a moment – do I need to validate? Do I need to control this more? Do I need to make the room safer? Is it ok for me to drop back here? And in that moment I can just pray I’m picking the right instinct to go with.

Sure, but sometimes, Wesley, that might be a sign of some insecure moment for you. And when you’re already in that, you’re not really attune to the room. If you can relax, even when they’re screaming at each other, and really listen to the attachment messages being said, when you can tune into that and reflect that, people will slow down.


As you’ve gotten to know yourself better as an EFT therapist, what do you think your particular strengths are?

Hmm, well, I think I do do pretty good when things get fired up. Maybe it’s my past work as a nurse and working in the ER, and being in life or death situations, but in those moments I can get calmer and focus in on what clients are saying.


Is there a particular niche of couples you tend to enjoy?

Not really, it’s rare I don’t enjoy a couple. I usually can find a way to enjoy them. One of the key pieces for me – I read this in a supervision book and can’t remember the author – is to find yourself in your clients. And by that I don’t mean counter-transference, but you have to find yourself in your clients, find yourself in what they say or their experience.


How do you take care of yourself in this work? What do you need in particular when the day is done, or on your day off, to rebalance yourself?

I think doing your own therapy is absolutely essential. That’s probably the number one thing. I do things like go to the gym, play music, I cook, I ski, I talk to my husband.

When I’m driving home, and wanting to stop thinking about my work day, I do this conscious thing where I say, “Ok, I’m getting ready to go home, I’m going to go home now.” I can’t always do it if it’s something super triggering, and then I know I need to consult with someone, but usually that does work for me.

There’s one other thing I want to comment on, if that’s ok.

I was seeing something on the listserve from someone struggling with a couple and getting spun out by the question of if the client was telling the truth or not. And I’ve learned that you can really just do your best with that. You can try and suss it out the best you can in the one to one session, but really that’s why process is so important, because that’s the only thing you’ve got that’s really real in the room. Otherwise you just get caught in all this stuff, and you don’t know the answers, and it’s all the therapist’s anxiety. That’s why the process in the room is so important.


I am so grateful to Patti for making the time to speak to me, and share her wisdom with us all!

To find out more about working with Patti as a supervisor, you can visit her website at

Concrete Help for Working with Affairs in Stage 1 - An Interview with Lori Epting

I am so excited to share this interview with you all! Lori Epting, LPC is an amazing EFT therapist with extensive experience in affair recovery work. She works out of The Wellness Counseling Center, an incredible EFT counseling center in Charlotte, NC. In her past, she worked at a center specializing in sex addiction in Scottsdale, AZ. She was generous enough to sit down with me and let me ask her questions about working with people who are in recovery from affairs, especially in Stage 1. Lori epitomizes the calm, gentle, nature of an EFT therapist, while also bringing the courage and backbone into the room needed for managing the rodeo ride that is affair recovery work. I know you'll find her insights as helpful as I did. 


With the infidelity situations I’ve seen, I’ve only seen the affairs had by the Withdrawer, have you noticed a pattern with this at all in your work?

In my office, it is usually the Withdrawer who has had the affair. Now, whether statistically the Withdrawer usually has affairs, I have no idea.  I think the Withdrawers don’t always know how to lean into their partner for the affection and the attention and care and the desire.  Another reason it may be showing up that way, is that likely, a Pursuer is more likely to pursue marriage counseling to repair.  

When I hear you talk about your work with affairs, something I think you do really well is naming the thing that is difficult to name. And I’ve heard you speak previously about dropping in the affair as part of the cycle. What I imagine is that the person who’s had the affair doesn’t want to talk about it, the other partner kind of does but also kind of doesn’t want to talk about it, how do you take that leap and start naming it in the room?

I definitely used to want to beat around the bush about it, as this ambiguous thing that happened. But I remember learning about this concept in Core Skills with Lisa Palmer-Olsen in a role play. The therapist was just stating the obvious and putting it out on the table, and Lisa was telling us what a calming affect that is for things just to be stated directly, and that has a calming affect for the hurt partner. The beating around the bush or the attack is what they do at home. So recognizing the calming affect of just stating it as it is and helping them have comfortable language around it. And you have to get comfortable with it as a therapist, I think that’s the biggest hurdle. When they see your comfort level in talking about it, being able to put labels on it, and have those calm conversations, I think that translates over. I think there is a calming nature to saying what is.

I think “affair” can be a very charged word, similar to the word “abuse”, and what I see is if there has been more of an emotional affair, or brief physical affair, the offending partner might bristle at labeling what happened as “an affair.” Is there language you use to label what happened that you find helpful?

I find the word betrayal helpful because no one is going to disagree that it’s a betrayal. I also will use the word infidelity, which can sometimes fit better for people.

In individual sessions in EFT we ask if there has been an affair. Have you had to go into the room knowing that one partner is going to disclose?

 Oh, yes. If I know it’s going to be disclosed, I try to feel out the stability of the receiving partner, and how is this going to land on them. Are they going to have the support and the strength to handle this information? And I definitely want the partner who had the affair to be the one to tell their partner.  What I’ve noticed over and over again, is that when the partner who has had the affair is able to tell their partner without them having to find out by the ATM receipt or in an email exchange, if they’re the one to lay that information in their partner’s lap, by their own admission, the repair process is much easier.

Have you ever been in the room when someone discloses their affair for the first time and you didn’t realize this was going to happen, because they didn’t disclose in the their individual session?

Absolutely. A lot of times when it’s been brought up in the room the person hasn’t been intending to say it. They didn’t come into the session planning on disclosing. Sometimes it happens when we’re unpacking the cycle there’s this confusion for one partner about why there’s been this pulling away and this distance. As we’re trying to unpack the distance and pulling away, sometimes the other partner will just blurt it out. Because that is a big part of the answer of why their partner has been acting in certain ways. And I think that’s ok because they might have never disclosed it without the proper conversation and proper setting. I’m also glad the injured partner has a support in the room to help them take in the information. Because at that point they’re in crisis and I’m glad they have someone who can give them some specific directives of what to do for the next 24-48 hours.

What specific directives do you help them with?

We talk about boundaries. By the time they’ve left the session they’ve decided if it’s ok to be in the same home, the same room, or the same bed. We keep it just to the next 48 hours. If there are any major plans on the immediate radar, like a trip planned or a kids birthday party, we talk about the comfort level of the injured party of who is attending. We do more logistical planning because we’re doing crisis management at this moment. And we talk with both partners about who could be their support systems for the next 48 hours, who can they each talk to. Depending on the level of the betrayal, especially if it’s something that is so life-changing, then I highly encourage they each find a support person to reach out to. Sometimes they don’t want to tell anybody yet, and that’s ok too, but is there a person you could tell, “something’s just going on, could we take a walk, go for coffee.” We also talk about the idea of physical boundaries, just for the next 48 hours, like if the injured partner doesn’t want to be touched or comforted then we put a label to that boundary, too, so there’s not confusion.

I also help the partner who just disclosed, I really validate for them the courage it took to do that. And I really try to instill hope in the couple that this was such a good step. That without this, we would have just been spinning our wheels, and so this is really good that it’s out and we can deal with it, and there is a process for that. So I try to really instill hope that it’s good that it’s out on the table, because the first thing the partner who disclosed is going to feel is, “I shouldn’t have told you.” And the other partner might even say that, “I can’t believe you told me like this,” So I really validate the progress of it.

With the affairs that you’ve seen, are there a percentage that are in the group who really fell in love with the affair partner, versus just got swept up in a crush?

There are the couples who come in and you can tell even by their report that the affair was just a physical thing. But there are a good number of couples who come in because they do feel like they fell in love with their affair partner. At that point, a lot of the work I do with the person who had the affair is helping them tease out those feelings - was it love, infatuation, or lust? And really helping them see they are now comparing apples to oranges. The thing about an affair is that it’s similar to alcohol, drugs, or gambling in that it’s a substitute for the intimacy. Where they might feel like they have that intimacy with the affair partner, they could be misled in their feelings because they’re not doing the day-to-day life with their affair partner. They’re only doing the fantasy part – the secret phone calls at the end of the day, the texting they hope doesn’t get caught, the secret romantic getaways, and none of that is real life at all. So to get caught up in the emotion of that, and to tell yourself, “this is love,” is easy to do, because it’s exciting and it’s the newness and there aren’t the complications of life.  And then they come back home to their partner with whom they do have all the complications of life, who they are disconnected from to begin with or they wouldn’t have had the affair. A lot of the work I do with them is helping them tease out the fantasy life of the affair compared to what real intimacy is about.

If I do that in a really non-judgmental way with them and really validate that they were searching for something that was missing and it makes sense, I can help them come to the conclusion that it was a substitute for true intimacy. And what they’re searching for is true intimacy and that’s not what they were getting from the affair.

And will you do that work with the other partner in the room?

I’ll start planting the seeds in the individual session and get a feel for how they’re viewing the affair partner (in our work there is an agreement that they are ending the relationship with the affair partner). But absolutely I’ll talk through this with them in the couples session because the other partner is already thinking it, they’re trying to get him/her to see it, so for me to just put it out there is reality. They are already fighting about it behind closed doors at home. The hurt partner can’t make sense of it but they are trying to ask those questions anyway. Like, “Did you really love her??” So for us to just all put it out there and talk about it as a substitute, and what it was and what it wasn’t, can be a healing process.

Something I am always trying to balance with EFT is trying not to heighten shame. How do you manage that the injured partner will need to hear the pain and remorse from their partner, with also not wanting to submerge the person who had the affair into shame?

I feel like with the shame, it’s definitely going to be there, and it’s going to keep the partner who has had the affair from showing up the way their partner needs. I will try to tease out the healthier part of the shame, the healthier part of the guilt, the healthier part of the regret. And as I hear the elements of that I’ll really heighten the part how he/she feels sadness for their partner. There is shame in all of that but it’s not what I’ll heighten in the room. Usually they really want to repair this for their partner, they don’t want them to be hurting this much, so I’ll validate that for them and track their desire for their partner not to be hurting. I’ll try to help them understand that their shame (and I’ll use their own words for this) is more about them, but their desire to help and comfort their partner is moving towards their partner.

If they say, “I just want them to be able to trust me,” we might tweak that and guide them to, “What can I do for you right now when you’re feeling this way?” I want to try and pull out the helpful emotions they have, and ask them, “what does that make you want to do?” So we try to build on that part. The parts language is really helpful and beautiful for working with shame.

In the beginning of Stage 1, I often hear people say “I want to look towards the future, and I don’t want to talk about the past, I just want us to move forward.” As therapists, we know that’s not possible, but how do you approach communicating that using the EFT model?

At that point I’m helping him/her make sense of the value of them being able to have healthy communication around the affair. We can talk about the raw spots and the triggers, and how the injured partner has a lot of these now. The injured partner could have a really good day but then they get triggered and all of a sudden they are in the pain of the affair, and in the betrayal feelings. I tell them, "I want to help you know how to be there for your partner when those raw spots happen." I definitely validate it would be great if that’s how it worked, and we could just put the behind us, but I try to give them motivation that as they start to learn how to communicate about this in a healthy way that it will help their recovery process.

I validate for them that they probably have not had one of these conversations go well. So they truly are coming in thinking “I don’t get why we have to talk about this,  it doesn’t do anything good. My partner never feels better.” Because they’ve never been able to talk about it in a way where they’ve been connected and can provide comfort for their partner. So it truly might seem ridiculous to them to talk about it.

How do you take care of yourself with the vicarious trauma of infidelity? For me, the more I work with infidelity, the most sensitive I can feel about it at home. How do you self-care around hearing so much about infidelity?

I think to remind ourselves that these are the more extreme scenarios and we live in it every day. We live in the stressful couples, not the healthy, care-free, intact couples. That’s our work, with the distressed couples. So I remind myself of that.

Thank you, Lori, for your insight and your time!


I, Wesley here now, want to normalize for you all that vicarious trauma is an expected part of the work. If you work with sexual assault, domestic violence, infidelity, etc. your brain does develop a hyper-vigilance. So to make sure that you are exercising, getting fresh air, seeing happy and funny things with friends or on TV, seeing beautiful things, these are all important ways to help our brains rest in the positive when we sometimes spend all day in the scary. And, like any good EFT-er, on a particularly hard day we can always turn to our partner and say, “I know this has nothing to do with you, but I’m feeling kind of freaked out about all the affairs I heard about today. Could you hug me for a minute?”